Multiple magic schools spells pack

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Drakkan
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by Drakkan » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:22 pm

AndakRainor wrote:Hello !

An important balance pass has been made as I was working on other parts of my own dungeon mod. All castable spells are now custom to take in account the normalized formulas for spells attack power or duration. Those two values vary this way :
- For a single magic school spell : baseValue * (1 + skillLevel/5 + champion:getCurrentStat("willpower")/100)
- For a dual magic schools spell : baseValue * (1 + (skillLevel1 + skillLevel2)/10 + champion:getCurrentStat("willpower")/100)
- For a triple magic schools spell : baseValue * (1 + (skillLevel1 + skillLevel2 + skillLevel3)/15 + champion:getCurrentStat("willpower")/100)
- For a quadruple magic schools spell : baseValue * (1 + (skillLevel1 + skillLevel2 + skillLevel3 + skillLevel4)/20 + champion:getCurrentStat("willpower")/100)
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What do you think about the 1% more damage (or duration) from the base spell values per willpower point ? Too much, too little or bad formula ? I thought 1 flat attackPower of 1 additional second to duration would be too good for cheap spells, already generally better at efficiency.
Do you think the +20% power per skill point for single magic school spell versus +5% power on each school for the quadruple magic schools spell is fair ? It makes for example elemental storm less powerful than meteor storm when learned and requires to fill all elemental skill points to be equal. Should it be more powerful at high skill levels instead ?
Reaching mastery in triple and more elements is impossible when playing main campaign and it is ALMOST impossible in majority of custom mods. Without knowledge tomes player usually reach one, maybe two element mastery, because wizard usually need also concentration skill as well (not talking about alchemy etc..) - I think calculation is quite simple - in average you reach level 13 at max, which means 13 invested points.
Therefore in my oppinion all these dual / triple and more elemental spells should be overpowered in sense of damage. It could for example cost more mana to avoid player totaly crash the dungeon with it, but still it should be at least little overpowered.

As for your formula Id like to know some details so I can set my spell damage accordingly - what is average damage lets say for Ice storm spell with champion having 20 willpower (if you will be so nice and give an calculation example both for old / new formula)
also is somewhere some list what average damage is for basic damage spells and how the formula is working ?
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Azel
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by Azel » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:49 pm

In the Mod I'm about to release, I decided to allow players to earn 2 skill points per level. Due to all the challenges I found it essential that players be able to truly build up their characters. You really can't be over-powered with the core class system, so being a master of multiple skills not only enhances the gameplay in a positive way, but also adds some much needed "replayability" to the Grimrock world.

For example:

A Warrior with max Weapons, Armor, and points between Dodge, Critical, Concentration.

An Alchemist with firearms, Alchemy, and some spells for utility.

A Wizard who can master all magic.

A true tank: a Knight with max weapons, armor, dodge, athletics.

Anyway, just a thought!

As for this magic pack, I am still dying to implement many of the spells but simply completing the Mod and releasing it within a reasonable time frame has taken so much work, gosh! I still plan to use this magic pack, but I may not get to do so until an update is made to the Mod later down the road.

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AndakRainor
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by AndakRainor » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:01 pm

Drakkan wrote:Reaching mastery in triple and more elements is impossible when playing main campaign and it is ALMOST impossible in majority of custom mods. Without knowledge tomes player usually reach one, maybe two element mastery, because wizard usually need also concentration skill as well (not talking about alchemy etc..) - I think calculation is quite simple - in average you reach level 13 at max, which means 13 invested points.
I just checked my saved games of the main campaign and my first team is level 14 with one champion at level 15, on laters games (for the hard mode old school and iron mode achievements) I have level 16 teams, with a human wizard with the skilled trait and 3 skill tomes used, so 21 skill points. Also on one save a level 20 farmer with 23 points. The 2 xp necklaces helped. As a level 1 character without skilled has 2 skill points (excepted for farmers) that means 14 points in your level 13 example, not 13. Just one level up to 14 and we can get 3 skills to the max ! So for a caster that would mean max concentration and 2 maxed elemental schools. Or maybe 3 elements with an alchemist for the energy potions ?

Also, you know that the only two persons on this planet who are creating Grimrock 2 mods for level 13+ parties are Azel and me :lol:
Drakkan wrote:Therefore in my oppinion all these dual / triple and more elemental spells should be overpowered in sense of damage. It could for example cost more mana to avoid player totaly crash the dungeon with it, but still it should be at least little overpowered.
You have a point there, and I also think the current formula does not feel right. On the other hand, it would mean that the multi element spells would be just better at high level. It could be, unless I find another idea to make them equal at all skill levels (but with progression!).
Drakkan wrote:As for your formula Id like to know some details so I can set my spell damage accordingly - what is average damage lets say for Ice storm spell with champion having 20 willpower (if you will be so nice and give an calculation example both for old / new formula) also is somewhere some list what average damage is for basic damage spells and how the formula is working ?
So to explain the formulas :
- the base damage is the damage of the spell if you were allowed to cast it with 0 skill points (as if you cast it with an item special for example).
- skill points in the element give +20% damage (or duration or heal power...) to the spell. This is for single element spells, as in the main campaign.
- 1 willpower gives +1% damage.

The bonuses are additive, so they all are percents of the base damage of a spell.

the base damage (attackPower) of the projectiles I used are the base damage of the main campaign except for lightning bolts :
- 30 for a fireball => fire is the best damage per second element
- 27 (was 30) for lightning bolt (but at a lower energy cost than main campaign) => air is the best damage per energy element
- 15 for frost bolt => ice is the best at crowd control
- 15 for poison bolt + damage over time from the cloud and poisoned condition => earth is the best at damage over time

for dual elements, skill points give +10% damage only as there are 10 skill points instead of 5, but that is a little unfair to multi elements characters and perhaps anti-climatic for a spell pack named "multi magic schools"... That would be the same as designing a new and exciting weapon type for the sequel of Grimrock 1, and make them the worst choice of skill points ever ! Totally insane !

So now what ? Do you think +20% would fit, as for single elements ? At max skills that would be 3 times the base damage for dual elements, or 50% more damage than a single element spell ? And 4 times the damage for triple elements, double the damage of meteor storm ? quadruple elemental storm would be 2.5 times the damage than meteor storm ? Is that ok ?
Last edited by AndakRainor on Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AndakRainor
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by AndakRainor » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:53 pm

the old formula for meteor storm was :

Code: Select all

local power = champion:getCurrentStat("willpower") * (skillLevel + champion:getSkillLevel("concentration")) / 24
spells_functions.script.missiles(power, {"fireball_large_custom"}, champion:getOrdinal())
the new is :

Code: Select all

local power = 2.5 * (1 + skillLevel/5 + champion:getCurrentStat("willpower")/100)
spells_functions.script.missiles(power, {"fireball_large_cast"}, champion:getOrdinal())
Also the default damage of fireball_large was used by fireball_large_custom and it was 70 attackPower. But the game does not use this value, but 30 instead for the original meteor storm spell. fireball_large_cast has 30 attackPower by default.

The power of the spell is used here not as an attackPower value but as the number of fireballs to launch. So at 5 fire magic skill points, 5 concentration and 20 willpower you have :
- with the old formula : 8.333 fireballs for 70 damage each.
- with the new formula : 5.5 fireballs for 30 damage each.
That is a lot less yes ! But that is closer to the original spell (5 fireballs for 30 damage each). If I used 2% more damage from willpower instead of 1% that would be 6 fireballs instead of 5.5, maybe it would be a little more interesting. It would make damage per willpower point more powerful than strength or dexterity for weapons, I should also compare cooldowns to choose a good value. (The old value was crazy at high willpower levels! Even from a sound point of view!)

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Drakkan
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by Drakkan » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:22 am

AndakRainor wrote:the old formula for meteor storm was :

Code: Select all

local power = champion:getCurrentStat("willpower") * (skillLevel + champion:getSkillLevel("concentration")) / 24
spells_functions.script.missiles(power, {"fireball_large_custom"}, champion:getOrdinal())
the new is :

Code: Select all

local power = 2.5 * (1 + skillLevel/5 + champion:getCurrentStat("willpower")/100)
spells_functions.script.missiles(power, {"fireball_large_cast"}, champion:getOrdinal())
Also the default damage of fireball_large was used by fireball_large_custom and it was 70 attackPower. But the game does not use this value, but 30 instead for the original meteor storm spell. fireball_large_cast has 30 attackPower by default.

The power of the spell is used here not as an attackPower value but as the number of fireballs to launch. So at 5 fire magic skill points, 5 concentration and 20 willpower you have :
- with the old formula : 8.333 fireballs for 70 damage each.
- with the new formula : 5.5 fireballs for 30 damage each.
That is a lot less yes ! But that is closer to the original spell (5 fireballs for 30 damage each). If I used 2% more damage from willpower instead of 1% that would be 6 fireballs instead of 5.5, maybe it would be a little more interesting. It would make damage per willpower point more powerful than strength or dexterity for weapons, I should also compare cooldowns to choose a good value. (The old value was crazy at high willpower levels! Even from a sound point of view!)
As I was thinking about this a little, it is very hard to balance all properly and seems every dungeon will need a little different approach. Speaking in average I probably just stick with original values and add more damage per each elemental class the spell requires.

single spells (like ice storm) - each projectile deal standard damage
dual spells - each projectile has 50% more damage than original (counted from base damage, this does not include any bonuses from skills etc...)
triple spell : 100 % more damage
all element spell : 150 % more (lets be honest - chance to get mastery in four elements is almost zero. So if player reach that in total end game, his spells NEED to be OP)

any additional bonuses from willpower skill are discussable. Unfortunately Log is not too much sophisticated regarding skill investment or stat increasing overall. You have fighter ? just increase STR eventually hp for him. You have wizard ? Max willpower for him. You do not need do something else as you do not need it.
Therefore giving damage bonuses from willpower to wizard is similar to giving bonuses from STR to fighter. From one point of the view this is ok of course, but on the other side, wizard already IS benefited to cast spells from long distances so giving him additional damage based on his will is little weird. Also I think there was a reason from developers why STR is giving additional damage per stat increased, while WILL is just for energy regen and extra energy, but NOT damage.

everything is just the matter of balance at the end. Should single elemental spell like for example meteor storm slay average monster like snake ? (300 hp) - some players probably say yes, some no.

I feel each modder need some testing inside his own dungeon to see HOW strong the spells are and accommodate it accordingly, especially for such a strong and devastating spells like you have gave us :)
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AndakRainor
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by AndakRainor » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:17 pm

To be sure we understand each other, I will repeat this : the skillLevel/5 part of the formula for a single elemental spell IS the +20% damage bonus per skill point the player can read about the magic skills in the game GUI. It must be included in a spell or this standard behavior shown to the player would be a shameful lie !

That being said, the current missiles function of the pack does not support modifying the attackPower carried by a projectile to its final hitEffect. it would be easy to change this fact, but I would prefer personally more projectiles instead of more damage per projectile for the stronger spells of multiple elements. For a few reasons :
- The fun factor : meteor storm is an amazing spell to discover in the main campaign because it throws 5 fireballs. It would be more boring if it was just a clone of the fireball spell with more damage, even if it would be easier to use while moving (the projectiles are thrown over 1 second, not instantly).
- Visual and audio : when projectiles look and sound different, it seems the feeling of power is lower, so elemental storm could use more projectiles without any drawback I think, unless you get to crazy high willpower!

Ideally, the other solution with projectiles of varying attackPower would be a visual effect relative to that power... Scaling its size ? Could be also fun but I did not try something like that before...

So, I think the best solution is : +20% per skill point, even for multiple elements. I also tried 2% base damage per willpower yesterday, but honestly can't say if it is more fair. The idea with damage per willpower is only to introduce a scaling factor to spell damage to compete with weapons users, I don't think more energy is enough, in a game where we get more potions than needed...

Azel
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by Azel » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:39 pm

So last night I opened up your Mod and placed every single magic scroll on the ground, and tested out every single spell :o

First of all, well done! I had a blast casting everything and the creativity behind these spells is fantastic. I just released the first version of my Mod (http://www.Mystrock.com) and my first goal is to make sure the entire gaming experience is flawless. Once that goal is achieved, I am planning to release an updated version (around Christmas) that only serves to enhance the experience. One of those ways will be with the introduction of new spells from this pack.

As of right now, these are my favorite spells that will likely end up in the December update of the Mystrock Mod:

1) Thunderstorm
2) Blizzard
3) Desolation
4) Frost Burst
5) Poison Storm

Some thoughts on a few others:

1) The earth/rock spells are awesome, but it would be nicer if there was more to the effect that just a graphic of the "rock" item being projectiled. Perhaps adding the "gunsmoke/sand" spray to make the rocks function more like the Fire/Poison/Frost/Lighting bolts?

2) The "conjure ice" spell is pretty darn creative, but could probably use more utility since it is essentially a Force Field that can be destroyed. For example, if it could cause Colde Damage, over time, to anything trapped in it. Also, if the graphic could look a tad bit less like a Philosopher Stone, just for immersion.

And a final thought:

The Enchantment spells are fantastic! I love them, but instead of trying to fit them in to my existing Mod, they inspire me to create an entirely new Mod where Enchantments can truly benefit. In this regard, I think in order to save the poor Wizard class, these enchantment spells should be limited to: "can only be cast by a Wizard." This will give a greater demand for mage-based groups, and give a great distinguishable advantage of a Wizard over other more viable magic class options.

For example, in the Main Campign of LoG 2, I chose to make an Alchemist and a Farmer my mage classes. They both could cast all spells in the game, and had a greater survivability than a standard Wizard. If, however, I had the option of using Enchantments in a lengthy battle-heavy Mod, well, that would make all the difference!

Great work on all of this.

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AndakRainor
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by AndakRainor » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:24 pm

Thank you for your feedback !
I am working right now on the conjure ice spell and will try to improve the things you suggested.

A few things about this spell; I don't know why you say its utility is so limited (as a kind of clone of force field). In fact it is mainly a puzzle breaker spell as contrary to the force field, this ice cube can be walked on :lol:
And you can push it and have more than one active at the same time, so you can literally build a bridge with it !

As a combat spell it is also very powerful, as is the force field. And it is dealing damage over time and freezing the monsters inside it.
But when I checked I saw it was physical damage, not cold damage because this tile damage was mainly used to destroy the block (setting its health value to 0 is not enough to trigger its destruction). I changed the code a bit there to deal cold damage to the tile and physical damage only at the destruction of the block (ice block is immune to cold damage !). Also, the damage is very low, as it is already a very strong crowd control spell. Do you think it should deal significant damage instead ?

Also corrected the cast, as I noticed this spell did not check the tile in front of the party before spawning the ice block. The spell never fails, do you think it should fizzle in case the front tile is blocked, or trap the party ? And if the party is trapped, should it fizzle or stack another block on the same tile ? I also have a freeze condition for characters I could use, but this condition is perhaps the most anti-game element I can think of right now, so I need your ideas on that :D .

As for the shape of the 3D model, do you have any idea about a model I could use ? One from the main campaign if possible, or something not too much memory consuming... Maybe I could use several models to get a variety of shapes. Any ideas will be welcome !

I will come to your other suggestions after I finish the conjure ice update. And for the anecdote, the way I buffed the wizard class in my mod is by making it the barbarian of willpower :roll:, which is more than nice with the formulas I use for spell power scaling with willpower !

Azel
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by Azel » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:58 pm

Thanks for the clarification on the Conjure Ice. I did not try to walk on it which is pretty cool I must admit. Since it is pushable then perhaps the current graphic model is perfect after all :mrgreen:

Again, good work and I look forward to incorporating these in to future Mod updates.

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AndakRainor
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Re: Multiple magic schools spells pack

Post by AndakRainor » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:52 pm

So I have implemented your suggestion for the cold damage of conjure ice and for the particles of rock spells. No idea for the ice block model, if any one has one i will gladly try it ! I will update soon the download link with the current version of the pack, tomorrow I hope. Thanks again !

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